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00:00: Can we preserve our humanity in the digital age? Where does creativity come from?
00:04: And what's the secret to living longer? The Ted Radio Hour podcast investigates the biggest
00:10: questions of our time with the help of the world's greatest thinkers. In each episode,
00:14: Ted Radio Hour brings the most interesting people on Earth to deliver some of the most
00:19: inspiring IGS on Earth. Listen now to the Ted Radio Hour Podcast from NPR.
00:25: Hey guys, are you ready for some money rehab?
00:30: Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player. Game stop.
00:34: That's the good thing.
00:35: And should I have a 401k because I don't do it?
00:37: No, I know.
00:39: I don't think the whole world will revolve around you on your money.
00:43: What does it mean?
00:45: Charge for wasting our time.
00:49: I will take a shot.
00:50: I don't believe it.
00:53: You recognize her from Anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg.
00:57: The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand.
01:01: The cold lap it.
01:03: I don't want to give away any spoilers.
01:05: So all I'll say is that I had a bizarre experience that I was looking to decode.
01:10: And the person who was best suited to decode said experience is my friend who is a sex
01:17: therapist Emily Morse. Are you intrigued? Well, let's get into it. Emily, I am so happy to say this
01:23: welcome to money rehab. So good to be here. Thank you for having me. Congrats on your show and
01:28: all this success. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I feel like I've been on your show and so it's nice to
01:32: have you come on mine and welcome you into my digital home, you know, on the show. Of course,
01:39: you know, that we're really interested in money, but of course how money intersects with all the
01:44: things, politics, relationships, psychology, everything. A few weeks ago we had a
01:49: sugar baby on the podcast to talk about the economics of sugaring and that
01:53: really got us interested in the intersection of sex and money. So you are the
01:57: perfect person to do the sex part because that's not my jam. I mean it is, but not my
02:02: expert jam. So when my producers and I were talking about this, I told them that I had
02:07: someone reach out to me asking me to be their findom and my producers had never heard of that term before.
02:15: So as a sex therapist and overall sex spirit, can you give us the definition?
02:20: Yeah, I mean findom essentially is, I think it's like BDSM, a lot of people know that is like power play,
02:27: dominance and mis-play. So findom is financial domination where this sub is somebody who is looking for,
02:34: for in many cases, we, you know, it's a man in this world where they're looking for someone
02:39: to dominate them financially, meaning they control their finances, they do a budget
02:46: for them. They are, you know, so instead of using ropes or ties or blindfolds, the money
02:53: becomes the factor that they are dominating with it.
02:56: So this guy reached out to me saying he just wanted to put $10,000 in my PayPal account,
03:00: Which is different in nature than some of the other weirdos I've received emails from.
03:06: We've all received some weirdo emails.
03:08: So the ladies in my office said, can I take the $10,000?
03:12: And I was like, listen, I don't want anything to do with this.
03:16: So if you want to reach out, then go for it.
03:19: And at that point, I started getting interested by this.
03:22: This was legit.
03:23: This guy wanted to just give me $10,000.
03:25: He said, no strings attached whatsoever.
03:28: And as we explored it, I was fascinated by this psychology.
03:33: So as a sexist, what is the psychology behind someone who's seeking out a financial dominant?
03:41: Well, first I want to say you'd probably be really good at being a findom because you'd
03:44: be really great at setting their budgets and telling them how they can spend their money
03:48: and how they can't spend their money.
03:49: So they probably would, you would be a natural if you ever decided to get into it.
03:54: But if you think about financial debt, it's sort of a fetish lifestyle like we're saying like it's like dominant submissive play,
03:59: but the reason why it's so arousing is because and there's a few factors.
04:03: It's the surrendering of power.
04:05: It's saying you're going to dominate me, like that's the arousing part.
04:09: And usually I don't speak in genders,
04:10: but we're just gonna say here that it is typically men who do this.
04:13: I'm just gonna say that it's men
04:15: who are told from a young age, we're supposed to be the breadwinners.
04:19: We have the money, we care for everything, and then there's something very arousing about the flip side of that.
04:25: You know, we measure our worth with money
04:27: and then just say, I'm gonna weaponize my money
04:30: and I'm gonna use it as something that's kinky
04:32: and then create this intimacy in a way with somebody
04:36: who is, we're giving up our powers,
04:37: we're giving up our control to somebody.
04:40: For many people, the reason why they access something like both do something like BDSM
04:44: or people know what BDSM is, or PowerPlay
04:47: is because we are in an exchange with somebody
04:49: and we're able to access a part of our emotions that we're not able to otherwise.
04:54: So there's the adrenaline rush.
04:56: There's a lot that happens when we are giving up control
04:59: of something and even though we know it's wrong, we're sort of fetishizing our money.
05:02: If so, there's sort of an addiction
05:04: that some of these people could have over this self-destructive behavior of giving up their money.
05:09: Yeah, I looked this person up because I thought, wait a minute,
05:13: this guy just has 10 grand to casually throw into my PayPal account.
05:18: Like, who is he?
05:19: He must have a lot of money.
05:21: But no, he didn't have a lot of money.
05:23: I looked him up.
05:24: He was like in this random town,
05:26: didn't look like the guy had 10 grand to be just giving to me.
05:31: And so it was a lot of money to him,
05:33: which is not initially what I thought.
05:36: I thought he was just like flush with cash, not the case.
05:39: And there was no sexy stuff involved.
05:42: So the arousal didn't come from ever what?
05:46: Meeting me or?
05:47: The thing is in most of these cases with thin doms and the sub, there's no meeting.
05:52: They don't ever meet.
05:53: It's almost like an intel-finduced psychological torture.
05:58: And I think that a lot of fintoms get into this because the fintoms, the fint subs, it's due to low self-esteem,
06:05: you know, inability to deal with in their normal life about rejection, humiliation.
06:10: It's almost like cuckolding,
06:12: which is another thing that we talk about,
06:14: and men have this fantasy of seeing their wife have sex
06:17: or their partner have sex with somebody else.
06:19: It's almost something happens.
06:21: This is like the understanding of arousal in this moment, the shame and the humiliation
06:29: flips itself and it actually becomes arousing and a turn on.
06:33: The moment he's wearing you the PayPal money.
06:35: He's like, that is a turn on.
06:37: I've just done this exchange that's penetrating to my deep psyche and it's arousing.
06:44: To me, for many, it can be an addiction because a lot of times, they'll do that and they
06:48: feel sort of regret after if it's in a adrenaline and a high and a low. But for some men, because again,
06:54: nothing here is so black and white. For some, it's just, it's an arousal. They have enough money to
07:00: do it. They make sure they don't get into too hot water. Like they're not declaring bankruptcy.
07:04: But they're in a relationship where it's the psychological arousal of feeling humiliated and
07:10: feeling submissive. Maybe every other area in their life, these men are dominating. They have
07:15: the high-powered jobs, they're at home with their wives, they're like doing all of these
07:19: things and they're like, we're there in control.
07:21: And if they can create a situation with just pretty low stakes in the sense of they're
07:26: not going to get an STI or an STD, it's not really cheating, although in some places
07:30: it can be, but it's a psychological exchange that goes out online where they are feeling this deep arousal.
07:35: Gotcha.
07:36: Sue, no, thank you for clarifying and thank you for going there to the actual, like, what
07:40: happens with the physical arousal because I was wondering, you know, if he's transferring
07:45: paypal money to me, is he literally getting hard or having an orgasm or like how is that?
07:51: I can't imagine that being pleasurable, but I suppose it is.
07:55: The thing is a kink. Many of us have kinks. We're into, you know, voyeurism or ex, we want to
08:01: watch people have sex outside or we really are kink, we like wearing certain things in the bedroom
08:06: or we like to sink, think certain thoughts to get us turned on. And so like financial
08:12: domination isn't even really transactional, which is kind of funny to think. It's sort of that
08:17: is the king. So the arousal is the act of them sending the money, but they're not expecting
08:22: anything from you in return. But it's not that any woman can just say, it's not just a woman saying,
08:27: you better give me money or you're an asshole. Like there's a whole art to the form of being a
08:33: dumb, being a fined dumb, being the dominant part of this. What is the art for it? Because I'm
08:37: I'm sure some women are listening like, I want to do it.
08:40: Wait a minute, wait for the fucking catch here.
08:43: I want 10 grand in my account for not ever meeting somebody.
08:46: It's a little bit of like acting.
08:48: You know how to escalate.
08:49: You know how to do the power play.
08:52: Like you're only going to give me 100 now.
08:54: Well, you know, I know you more than that.
08:56: Give me a thousand.
08:57: I mean, you know, and you know, you understand the psychology.
09:00: You mean, maybe you probably need some really great improv.
09:02: And if you were like a phone sex operator and you have taken some improv classes or you and you're something about money,
09:08: that might be the great trifecta there
09:10: of you being an expert in it.
09:11: But it is a practice just like anything else.
09:15: I think it's about understanding psychology,
09:18: understanding the levels of what's gonna get somebody to,
09:22: and being able to go through the motions.
09:25: If you appear and you're like, give me $1,000
09:27: and the guy says, no, you're like, okay,
09:29: but you have to keep playing with him,
09:30: you have to keep messing with him.
09:32: You have to be able to insult somebody,
09:33: you have to be able to literally dominate him and say,
09:36: you're, you know, you're just a, you know, you're whatever you would say.
09:41: I don't know how much do you want me to swear like you're a pussy?
09:43: Go for it, you're a piece of shit.
09:44: Like, give me more money.
09:46: You ask for, I don't know.
09:47: Make sure an asshole, give me money.
09:48: Like if you don't, it could be bribing.
09:50: Like if you don't give me money, I'm going to tell your wife,
09:53: I'm going to tell your kids, I'm going to tell your family.
09:56: I'm going to tell you some casual extortion too.
09:58: It is extortion, but it's like, it's sort of like it's extortion that is,
10:03: Um, consensual. It's like consensual extortion.
10:07: Hold on to your wallet's poison girls. Money rehab will be right back.
10:13: Can we preserve our humanity in the digital age? Where does creativity come from?
10:18: And what's the secret to living longer? The Ted Radio Hour podcast
10:22: investigates the biggest questions of our time with the help of the world's greatest thinkers.
10:27: In each episode, Ted Radio Hour brings the most interesting people on Earth to deliver some
10:32: of the most inspiring ideas on Earth.
10:34: Listen now to the Ted Radio Hour Podcast from NPR.
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11:40: Now for some more money rehab.
11:42: So have you spoken to women who are just financial dominance
11:46: or are there women who are general dominance who do all of the domination?
11:52: I've spoken to all of them.
11:52: There's dominatrix.
11:53: There are women who are just financial domes.
11:55: And especially during the pandemic,
11:57: when no one could leave their house anyway,
11:58: we saw a rise in fin doms.
12:02: We saw a rise in people being able to do this across all platforms.
12:06: It became more where you thought it was a little bit more private or you had to have a,
12:11: you know, it was a secretive account.
12:13: And you don't want anyone to know.
12:14: Now they have full on like Twitter accounts, Instagram, maybe not Instagram because they're more restrictive about this stuff.
12:20: But yeah, they have full on profiles and they're open about it.
12:24: And the difference is that I think with the lot of dominant nature systems or regular
12:28: dumb, you probably would see them in person.
12:31: You know, it's the picture we have with the woman in the leather boots and the whips and
12:35: humiliating in either way. They're still humiliating their subjects for wherever it could be with pain
12:41: It could be with you know spanking our pain our ropes our chains or it could be with emptying their bank account
12:49: Like getting the access to the bank account. That's that's part of this giving over your passwords
12:55: That's the part of the loss of control too
12:58: It's almost like if someone said to you,
13:00: could you imagine I were giving up your password,
13:02: but it's such this moment of deep,
13:06: of like I can't believe I'm doing this.
13:08: It's like a thrill.
13:09: It's a dream, think of like the things that you've done
13:11: that are so adrenaline seeking things that you,
13:14: for some people it's like jumping off a bridge,
13:16: or it's sky diving, or it's taking risks, getting up in public speaking.
13:21: But for these people, it's for these people
13:25: that engage in this, it's literally like,
13:29: I can't believe I'm doing this.
13:31: I'm giving up my passwords.
13:32: I'm giving up the most part.
13:33: My life could be ruined.
13:35: And yet, at the point of doing it, I am so aroused.
13:40: It's living that intersection of holy shit.
13:43: I'm giving some of my money to like, I did it and that turn on.
13:46: They get turned on, they get aroused.
13:47: It's addictive and they can't stop doing it.
13:50: So what kind of advice would you give someone
13:51: to make sure that they're structuring this relationship to be safe and healthy.
13:57: Like having safe words, maybe that whole,
13:59: I'm thinking of the scene in 50 Shades with the contract.
14:04: I mean, do you even go that far?
14:06: I would say if you're getting into relationship
14:08: with somebody like this and you're giving them
14:10: all of your passwords, all of your money
14:12: that you absolutely should have a contract, you should have a safe word.
14:15: You should, I mean, otherwise this could go get really bad, really fast.
14:19: So my, I'm assuming that yes, have a contract,
14:22: have rules of engagement, check in often.
14:25: We also talked on the show about sugaring.
14:28: I didn't even know that that was a verb or a gerund or whatever you call it.
14:33: We spoke with a woman who calls herself a sugar babe,
14:36: which is also new terminology to me
14:38: because I've only heard this sugar baby idea.
14:40: And when we spoke with her, she said that she considered
14:42: herself in a relationship with her sugar daddies
14:45: and she's only dated sugar daddies, no other guys.
14:49: Is that the norm that really surprised me?
14:52: there is no norm here with that.
14:53: I mean, I think that sugar daddy's,
14:56: she's not dating anyone else and yet, and she's just dating them.
15:00: Well, it depends, what she, yeah, she calls them her boyfriend.
15:02: Well, maybe she's got some intimacy, which she's some intimacy challenges where she's not really looking for a deep emotional connection.
15:08: And to have a man who's taking care of her,
15:11: all of her needs financially might just be enough.
15:14: But I also know some people who are sugar daddy
15:16: is sugar babies and they have a sugar daddy.
15:19: And they actually have a boyfriend home and they just have an arrangement
15:23: with the sugar daddy who pays their rent every month or who buys them school supplies
15:28: or whatever for college or whatever else they need.
15:31: So I think that in these arrangements,
15:33: the main thing is that there's, you know, it's the dominance.
15:37: There's someone in control and there's someone submissive
15:39: and money is the same, money is the factor.
15:41: So I would say that you could call on your boyfriend,
15:43: you could just say you're a sugar daddy,
15:44: you could not tell, I know people who do it,
15:46: they don't tell any of their friends, right?
15:48: They don't even tell their boyfriend sometimes.
15:50: I don't advise that.
15:51: But I think that it's a way that's for some men
15:55: who are in this role, maybe they never had a daughter
15:58: or maybe they had a strain relationship with their daughter
16:00: and they felt that there's some healing thing in here,
16:03: but they also find this person attractive.
16:05: And for some women, maybe they have a father issue,
16:09: father challenges, they find that kind of hot to be taken care of.
16:12: And so it really is, this is where it's a transactional
16:16: consensual relationship where you have a contract. This is what it's about. You're going to pay my rent.
16:21: I'm going to go to the movies with you once a week. You know, I think that every single one of these relationships,
16:25: I think the main factor is that there's money involved and
16:29: there's somebody taking the money. But in the healthiest ones, you really have to walk through what's our contract?
16:35: What's our deliverables? What do we expect? And for some, there's no emotions. For some, there's no sex. for some it's just transactional.
16:43: So I think people have to understand
16:45: like there's not you get to decide.
16:47: If you go into this relationship,
16:48: you get to decide what you want, sort of the world west.
16:50: And all of it's unique, as you say, everything is individual.
16:53: I have been really surprised at the more I've looked
16:56: into sugaring and the economics of sugaring
16:58: and who these women, who these men are, or every permutation in between,
17:03: that a lot of these women are like boss bitches.
17:07: Yeah.
17:08: Lawyers or executives who want to be,
17:11: Sugar babies.
17:12: What?
17:13: Feels really good to be taken care of sometimes.
17:15: It feels good to be in that submissive role
17:18: where you feel that you don't listen.
17:20: It's the same thing for some of these men.
17:22: If you're a boss bitch and you're out there every day,
17:24: you're running your company, you're running your business, you got a lot going on.
17:27: And there's somebody who's gonna take care of you.
17:29: Even if you don't need the money,
17:31: but it's somebody who's just sort of doting on you
17:33: or they are just showing up for you
17:37: and ways that other people in your life aren't.
17:38: And you get to be submissive.
17:40: you get to kind of relax for a minute and be like, okay, babe, you got this?
17:43: Amazing.
17:44: That makes a lot of sense.
17:46: I mean, I'm more submissive to you.
17:47: In my life, being the boss and doing all the things,
17:50: I'm dominant, but like, you get me in the bedroom,
17:52: I'm like, I'm out.
17:53: I'm in this all day.
17:54: Like, I'm active.
17:56: Don't get me wrong, but I don't want to necessarily take control.
17:58: I can tell you what's gonna happen and what we should probably do,
18:00: but then you can take the lead on it.
18:02: And I think that's really common.
18:03: That we don't usually go through life
18:05: in the same state all the time.
18:07: And especially when it comes to sex, sometimes there's this switch.
18:11: Yeah, you and I have talked about this in the past
18:13: and totally I couldn't agree with you more.
18:16: I obviously am a boss bitch or a group of book boss bitch.
18:20: And yet I wanna really be in that feminine energy in my romantic relationship.
18:26: Like I don't want to pay on a first date.
18:29: I don't even wanna look, I don't wanna see the check.
18:32: And that's just my choice.
18:33: Doesn't mean I can't pay for it.
18:34: I can, I can pay for all the meals in the whole restaurant. could probably pay for the restaurant.
18:39: But that's my choice.
18:40: And I don't care what other women wanted to do.
18:42: That's your progative, I think, being the ultimate feminist
18:45: is not telling other women what to do.
18:46: Like you do you, girl.
18:48: But as a sex therapist, what are some of the other common issues you see money play in relationships?
18:54: Money is probably one of the huge factors
18:57: I would say money and kids and sex are three of the main factors that most couples have challenges around.
19:04: And for money, it's because we're not completely honest
19:07: sometimes, we don't disclose if we have debt.
19:11: We don't disclose what we want our aspirations financially.
19:15: We have different views on how we each want to spend our money.
19:19: And we don't talk about this before we get married and commingle our finances.
19:23: I think it also goes back to your family of origin.
19:26: If you grew up in a home where money was tight
19:28: and your parents were much more restrictive,
19:30: and then you're with somebody who's like a big spender and they're always spending money, kind of sort of flippantly.
19:36: And you become a saver,
19:37: there's all these conflicts in the way that we handle money.
19:40: So I think it's becoming,
19:41: being raised with different values around money,
19:44: when you get into a relationship with somebody,
19:46: and we don't often talk about these things before we get married, which is kind of crazy, or get into a relationship,
19:51: that can really be a problem for you, different views, like your partners, splurging on a new car, and you're like,
19:59: but we still need to put away money for the kids' education.
20:01: We haven't talked about any of this.
20:03: So I always recommend to couples
20:04: that these are the things that you need to clear before you move in together.
20:08: What are our values towards money?
20:10: What do we value?
20:12: Do we want to save?
20:13: Do we want to spend?
20:14: Do we want to spend on vacation?
20:15: Some couples say we just want to spend on experiences but not on things, you know?
20:19: It's just really our values around money.
20:24: What recommendations you have for couples
20:27: who need to talk about money issues, especially if they're nervous, which most of them are.
20:32: I think that you can use by three T's conversations,
20:35: an awkward conversation, timing, tone, and turf.
20:37: You wanna have the conversation at the right time.
20:40: It's not when you're hungry and angry
20:42: and lonely and tired and pissed at your partner.
20:45: You wanna do it when it's,
20:47: so the timing is when you're casual, you're hanging out,
20:49: and your tone is light and curious.
20:52: Let's talk about money.
20:53: I realize we've never really had a real conversation about money.
20:56: And the turf is somewhere like not
20:58: when you're sitting down at the kitchen table
21:00: with your money spread out and you're about to like get paid taxes.
21:03: It's like really, really, really hard.
21:05: And I say, I want to talk about our financial situation
21:07: because I realize that lately I know there's some debt.
21:10: We haven't really talked about it.
21:11: And I'm feeling like I would really like to have a growth mindset around money and around connecting with you about money.
21:17: This is not something I've had before.
21:19: And would you be willing to kind of go on a journey with me
21:23: to figure out the healthiest ways for us to be together and have, you know, health finances.
21:31: Well, for today's tip, you can take straight to the bank.
21:35: We've been enjoying reports on money topics
21:38: that live at the intersection of other disciplines
21:41: and don't get a lot of attention like money and sex, money and politics, money and relationships, social justice, and many more.
21:48: If there are any topics that you wanna learn more about,
21:51: DM me on Instagram at Money We Have Show or email us at moneyrehab at knucklelappin.com.
22:02: Moneyrehab is a production of I Heart Radio.
22:05: I'm your host, Nicole Lapin.
22:06: Our producers are Morgan LeVoy and Mike Costa Relle.
22:09: Executive producers are Nikki E. Tor and Will Pearson.
22:12: Our mascots are Penny and Mimzie.
22:15: Huge thanks to OG Moneyrehab team Michelle Lans for her development work, Catherine Law
22:21: for her production and writing magic and brand and dicker
22:24: for his editing, engineering, and sound design.
22:27: And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself
22:31: so that you can get it together and get it all.
22:34: Yes, man, my money, my money, my money